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楼主: 嘁哩喀喳

[其他] 详细解释基督教“不信的下地狱”的“圣经”根据

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发表于 2011-3-10 05:46 PM | 显示全部楼层


But you don't understand the Holy Bible.
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发表于 2011-3-10 05:59 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复 61# CoolMax


    I never say I do. I don't have to, it's not holy to me at all. Do you?

This verse, Romans chapter 2 verse 12, you raised it first in the attempt to prove that Chinese ancestors with no knowledge of law don't have to go to hell. Now you have changed so fast to say it's applicable only to Jews. Can you explain this? Do you think you ever understand the Bible?

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发表于 2011-3-10 06:35 PM | 显示全部楼层
末日审判的时候, 信犹太天主伊斯兰巴哈摩门的会是神马下场?
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发表于 2011-3-10 07:41 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  CoolMax


    I never say I do. I don't have to, it's not holy to me at all. Do you?

Th ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-10 05:59 PM


14节开始,才是讲外邦人。
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发表于 2011-3-10 07:42 PM | 显示全部楼层
末日审判的时候, 信犹太天主伊斯兰巴哈摩门的会是神马下场?
benshou 发表于 2011-3-10 06:35 PM


把圣经读一遍,经常去福音派教会,浸信会,就知道了。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-3-10 08:02 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  CoolMax


    Sigh, anyone knows basic English grammar, wouldn't interpret it any differen ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-10 15:19



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发表于 2011-3-10 08:53 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  Simpletrader


    Did I? And why not you tell me how you 'don't' separate and come out wi ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-10 17:22



    Then, please give us the background of that part of verses from your view since you don't believe our explanation.
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发表于 2011-3-11 12:40 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复 67# Simpletrader


    Is that relevant? And the only thing 'holy' to you is whatever has been written in this book. Anything else is not 'holy' and can't be used to overwrite the statement in this book.

Basically, you Jewish story believers have trapped yourself in this situation, that you either turn your back to the Bible, or you have no face to your ancestors.

And you make your own choice.

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发表于 2011-3-11 12:55 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复 64# CoolMax


    Verse 14 is specifically to gentiles, and verse 12 is to everyone. I am surprised you even attempt to deny this, and it only further exposes your dishonesty when you try to mispresent something you call holy.

Show me some courage. Confess it, verse 12 is to everyone, including Chinese ancestors. This crystal clear from the context or either the verse itself.

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发表于 2011-3-11 03:12 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复  CoolMax


    Verse 14 is specifically to gentiles, and verse 12 is to everyone. I am surp ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-11 00:55



    To me, ver 12 is a judgement for who have heard the bible including believer and non-believer.  ver 14 is for those have not heard the bible.

Don't be afraid of being judged if you think you did everything right.
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发表于 2011-3-11 03:31 AM | 显示全部楼层
The Law of Nature (Romans 2:12-16)

            The point of this paragraph (Romans 2:12-16) is to show that each category (of people) will perish according to that which God has given them. Whether one has the Law (of Moses) or not sin exists (Romans 2:12-13). While the Gentile did not have the Law of Moses, it could not be said that they had no sin against them—for the Lord said they did. The Jew thought that since he had the Law (of Moses), God would look favorably upon him and overlook whatever sin might be against him. However, merely having the Law did not make the Jew righteous. Why? Because the Lord expected one to obey the Law from the heart and many of the Jews did not; rather, they obeyed it outwardly. The Jew would hear what the Law said (cf. Deuteronomy 30:10), but he would not do it (obey, cf. Deuteronomy 10:12-16). God looked unfavorably upon this. Now what about the Gentile (Romans 2:14-16)? Paul, in making this application to the Jews, contrasts the Gentiles. The Gentiles who lived according to the standard of the Law (even though they did not have the Law – God never gave it to them) was in better position than the Jew who had the Law. They were in better position because the Gentiles were doing the things of the Law on account of the fact that it was in their heart to do them. Those Gentiles who were living by the standard of God’s Law (given to the Israelites) were doing so because of where their heart was. Even though the Law was not given to the Gentiles, sin was still present. This little paragraph establishes the principle that God never designed the Law of Moses to save man (cf. Acts 13:39), for the just will live by faith!
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发表于 2011-3-11 03:35 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复 70# Simpletrader


    One who intentionally misinterprets and mispresent Bibles is only a fake Christian, and you are in this category now. For just before verse 12, right in verse 11, it's precisely emphasized 'there is no respect of persons with God'. And then it immediately continues in verse 12 saying 'as many as' (actually in some non-KJV versions, it straightly says 'all') have sinned without law shall perish. You have absolutely no base and are either blind or dishonest to make the assumption that verse 12 is only meant for a particular group of people but not all!

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
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发表于 2011-3-11 03:46 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复 71# Simpletrader


    What you have quoted here exactly rejects what your claim that verse 12 only applies to those who has heard the law.
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-3-11 12:29 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  Simpletrader


    What you have quoted here exactly rejects what your claim that verse 12 ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-11 03:46



   
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发表于 2011-3-11 05:09 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  Simpletrader


    One who intentionally misinterprets and mispresent Bibles is only a fak ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-11 03:35



    ZT Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell? Bible Says "No

Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?
Bible Says "No!"

By Rev. Bill McGinnis, Director - LoveAllPeople.org
Search our pages => http://loveallpeople.org/searchallpages.html
Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell? Bible Says "No!"

Perhaps the most serious error that many Christians fall into is the false doctrine that if you don't believe in Jesus Christ as Son of God, risen from the dead, you will surely go to Hell and be tortured forever throughout eternity after you die.
It was this false doctrine, as much as anything else, which allowed the Church to authorize torture to be used to extract confessions from suspected witches during the Inquisition. "After all," the reasoning went, "what is a few hours or days of torture now compared to an eternity of torture which is surely awaiting these same people after they die?"

And thus the law of "Love thy neighbor as thyself" was turned upside down, as the Church itself tortured people to death in the name of God.

Satan, of course, thought this whole thing was great fun. It was his idea to begin with, based on a twisting of Scripture, one of his favorite things to do!

This false doctrine defames God and is a stumbling block to potential believers, because it is so intuitively unfair and repugnant to Justice. The Natural Law, which God has given to all people, categorically rejects such an abomination of Justice. Satan loves to spread this idea, however, because it makes him look good compared to God!

This false doctrine is based mainly on two verses from Scripture which might seem to say that belief in Christ is necessary to avoid Hell. These two verses are . . .

              "He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who
               does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16 RSV)

               Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the
               life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
               (John 14:6 RSV)
Both of these, however, can be read in other ways, which change their meanings completely. We will look first at Mark 16:16, then at John 14:6.
  MARK 16:16

   In understanding Mark 16:16, we need to read it in context of the
   verse before it, Mark 16:15, which talks about "preaching the Gospel."

       MARK 16:15-16 (RSV)

         _____________________________________________________________

        15
               And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the
               gospel to the whole creation.
        16
               He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who
               does not believe will be condemned.
         _____________________________________________________________
The condemnation applies only to people who have had he Gospel presented to them, so that they fully understand the ideas, and then they reject it anyway. If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. And if they don't understand it, they are not condemned.
Here are the words of Jesus, speaking about the soldiers who were crucifying Him . . .

         -------------------------------------------------------------
       And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they
       do." (Luke 23:34a RSV)
         _____________________________________________________________
Just as Jesus excused His executioners, so also He excuses those who have not heard or do not understand the Gospel message, those who "know it not."
Thus the only condemnation in Mark 16:16 is for those who have heard the true Gospel message, and understand it, but reject it anyway. And this is a serious condemnation: to know the Gospel, but still reject it!

  JOHN 14:6

               Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the
               life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.
               (John 14:6 RSV)
The correct understanding of John 14:6 is that Jesus is the gatekeeper to Heaven. Nobody gets to the Father, that is, gets into Heaven, except by being let in by Jesus. Jesus may let them in for whatever reasons He chooses. He is not required to let in only those who believe in Him.
The Biblical fact is this: belief in Jesus is the sure way to avoid Hell, but it is not necessarily the only way. Jesus Himself said that you can avoid Hell by doing good to other people out of love for them. This is the entire meaning of the Parable of the Sheep And The Goats. In this parable, there is no mention whatsoever of faith: it is pure works based on love. God accepts your good works toward others as if they were good works done to Him in love. He counts your love for others as righteousness (see Matthew 25:46, below).

Please note that these are not "works of the law" but works of love.

Here is the Parable Of The Sheep And The Goats, which is a clear statement, by Jesus Himself, that love toward other people will keep you out of Hell.

       MATTHEW 25:31-46 (RSV)

                  Parable Of The Sheep And The Goats

         _____________________________________________________________

        31
               "When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the
               angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.
        32
               Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will
               separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the
               sheep from the goats,
        33
               and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the
               goats at the left.
        34
               Then the King will say to those at his right hand, 'Come,
               O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for
               you from the foundation of the world;
        35
               for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and
               you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,
        36
               I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited
               me, I was in prison and you came to me.'
        37
               Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see
               thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink?
        38
               And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or
               naked and clothe thee?
        39
               And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit
               thee?'
        40
               And the King will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as
               you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you
               did it to me.'
        41
               Then he will say to those at his left hand, 'Depart from
               me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the
               devil and his angels;
        42
               for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty
               and you gave me no drink,
        43
               I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you
               did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not
               visit me.'
        44
               Then they also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see thee
               hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in
               prison, and did not minister to thee?'
        45
               Then he will answer them, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did
               it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to
               me.'
        46
               And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the
               righteous into eternal life."
         _____________________________________________________________
Many other Bible verses support the idea that love for others is sufficient to keep you out of Hell.
       Galatians 5:14 (RSV)
       For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, "You shall love your
       neighbor as yourself."

       Romans 13:8 (RSV)
       Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for he who loves
       his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

       Romans 13:10 (RSV)
       Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling
       of the law.

       James 2:8 (RSV)
       If you really fulfil the royal law, according to the scripture,
       "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well.

       Proverbs 10:12 (RSV)
       Hatred stirs up strife, but love covers all offenses.

       1 Peter 4:8 (RSV)
       Above all hold unfailing your love for one another, since love
       covers a multitude of sins.

                            <><
Also, 1 Corinthians 13 tells about the supreme importance of love, even more important than faith. And 1 John 4 says that God is love and if you are filled with love you have God dwelling in you already.
In addition to love for others, there is another way that non-believers in Christ can avoid going to Hell: by following the Natural Law written on their hearts by God.

According to the Bible, there is such a thing as "The Natural Law." It is given by God to mankind, written on our hearts so we instinctively know right from wrong. Those who are not Jews (under the Law of Moses) will be judged by this Natural Law, not by whether they accept Jesus Christ or not.

  ROMANS 2:14-16 (RSV)

                            The Natural Law
         _____________________________________________________________

        14
               When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the
               law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though
               they do not have the law.
        15
               They show that what the law requires is written on their
               hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and
               their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them
        16
               on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the
               secrets of men by Christ Jesus.
         _____________________________________________________________
The Natural Law is not written down anywhere, but many people believe it is closely approximated by The Ten Commandments (see Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great Commandment (see Matthew 22:35-40).
In 1 Timothy 4:10, the Bible says that God is Savior of all men, "especially those who believe." It does not say "only those who believe." Believers in Christ have a straight and sure path away from Hell. But it is not the only path, if you believe what the Bible really says.

      "For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set
       on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of
       those who believe." (1 Timothy 4:10 RSV)
In summary, it is a false and harmful doctrine that only believers in Jesus Christ can avoid going to Hell. If anyone claims to believe the Bible, he must then believe what it says on this subject: it is possible to avoid Hell without accepting Jesus Christ as Lord.
Hell is intended for Satan and his demons. It is not intended for normal people trying to live peaceful lives in the world.

We who do accept Him as Lord have a great advantage over those who do not. Our path is straight and sure. We have the joy of fellowship with Him, as He lives inside us and we have immediate access to Him at all times. He provides for all our needs. He guides our footsteps and makes everything that happens to us work for our own benefit. We are assured of eternal life with Him forever in Heaven. What more could we want?

The non-believers in Christ are basically lost, wandering around like blind people without guidance. Nevertheless, non-believers in Christ are not necessarily doomed to Hell. They can avoid it either by obeying the Natural Law written on their hearts or by loving their neighbor as they love themselves, which fulfills all of God's law.

So this is the way it works:

1. IF YOU BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST AS YOUR PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR
    THEN YOU DO NOT GO TO HELL

2. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
    AND YOU HAVE NOT HEARD THE GOSPEL OR DO NOT UNDERSTAND IT
    THEN YOU ARE JUDGED BY THE NATURAL LAW (OR BY THE MOSAIC LAW
    IF YOU ARE A JEW.) THE ROYAL LAW ("You shall love your neighbor
    as yourself") FULFILLS ALL THE REQUIREMENTS OF BOTH THE MOSAIC
    LAW AND THE NATURAL LAW (according to Galatians 5:14).

         The Natural Law is approximated in the Ten Commandments
         (see Exodus 20:1-17) together with The Great
         Commandment (see Matthew 22:35-40). The Royal Law,
         so named by James, is "You shall love your neighbor
         as yourself" (see Galatians 5:14, James 2:8).
         The Mosaic Law is all the Law of the Old Testament.

3. IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE IN JESUS CHRIST
      AND YOU HAVE HEARD THE GOSPEL AND UNDERSTAND IT
      (but you reject it nevertheless)
    THEN YOU GO TO HELL

      . . . unless Jesus decides to take mercy on you, which He as Judge,
      is allowed to do.
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发表于 2011-3-11 05:10 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  Simpletrader


    What you have quoted here exactly rejects what your claim that verse 12 ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-11 03:46



    You can go ahead quote the your same explanation from others. I want to study it.
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发表于 2011-3-11 05:51 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复  CoolMax


    Verse 14 is specifically to gentiles, and verse 12 is to everyone. I am surp ...
revolver 发表于 2011-3-11 12:55 AM


Disagree!
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-3-11 07:13 PM | 显示全部楼层
ZT Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell? Bible Says "No

Do All Non-Christians Go To Hell?
...
Simpletrader 发表于 2011-3-11 17:09



这下我放心了。照这个个说法,我要 GO TO HELL。:lol

真担心基督徒们说,你反基也得上天堂。:lol
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发表于 2011-3-11 08:06 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复 77# CoolMax


    You can disagree, but this disagreement is against Bible.
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发表于 2011-3-11 11:44 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复 75# Simpletrader


  The argument is never if all non-believers go to hell, it is if non-believers who sinned go to hell.



而且你所摘贴的文章,充满了对圣经的曲解和逻辑错误!


       15
               And he said to them, "Go into all the world and preach the
               gospel to the whole creation.
        16
               He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who
               does not believe will be condemned.
         _____________________________________________________________
The condemnation applies only to people who have had he Gospel presented to them, so that they fully understand the ideas, and then they reject it anyway. If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. And if they don't understand it, they are not condemned.
Here are the words of Jesus, speaking about the soldiers who were crucifying Him . . .

If they have never heard it, they are not condemned. 这句话是对verse 15/16的刻意曲解!就算把马克原文中的意思牵强理解为If non-believers have heard before, then they are condemned,在逻辑上也根本无法得出If non-believers have never heard, then they are not condemned.的结论。从If A then B, 能够推出的只有If not B then not A,而不是If not A then not B。这是个基本的逻辑道理,懂吗?所以你所贴的这段是对马克原文的刻意错误解释!



        -------------------------------------------------------------
       And Jesus said, "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they
       do." (Luke 23:34a RSV)
         _____________________________________________________________
Just as Jesus excused His executioners, so also He excuses those who have not heard or do not understand the Gospel message, those who "know it not."

这是对圣经愿意的另一赤裸裸的刻意歪曲!照这么说来任何犯罪的人只要不知道,只要"know it not"就全被耶稣赦免了?对耶稣行刑不是不知道他所传播的信仰,只是视其为邪端而不相信。如果按照你的逻辑,我们所有这些知道有基督教这回事但视其为邪端而不相信的人都自然会得到耶稣的赦免。甚至在我们的一生中还可以多做点罪恶!因为有什么罪还能恶过把耶稣定上十字架?



The Biblical fact is this: belief in Jesus is the sure way to avoid Hell, but it is not necessarily the only way. Jesus Himself said that you can avoid Hell by doing good to other people out of love for them. This is the entire meaning of the Parable of the Sheep And The Goats. In this parable, there is no mention whatsoever of faith: it is pure works based on love. God accepts your good works toward others as if they were good works done to Him in love. He counts your love for others as righteousness (see Matthew 25:46, below).

Again这是对原文圣经的恶意曲解和胡说八道!正本圣经讲的都是对上帝的faith,而你的帖子居然只是从一段parable里没有mention到faith就推出耶稣会放弃faith为标准而只以"pure works based on love"来进行审判?这是彻头彻尾反圣经反基督教的言论!

其他的段落就不多说了,都是错误百出。

基本的事实是,按照圣经,犯罪者下地狱,并不因为不知律法和福音被赦免。你的祖先,按照圣经,都有罪!

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