找回密码
 注册
搜索
楼主: kubuwa

[原创] 读经不解:关于“创世之前”的状态『码字完成』

[复制链接]
发表于 2011-8-8 11:12 PM | 显示全部楼层


kubuwa 发表于 2011-8-9 00:04
回复 任大先生 的帖子

得,碰见三位一体这种循环论证的货色,还真得请高人。恕不奉陪。

拜拜~~~~。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-8 11:37 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 kubuwa 于 2011-8-9 00:37 编辑

好端端的9-21楼,悲剧了。早知某人有3=1这种无赖压箱底货,也不该点这个名

乍一看怎么也得是个落水的凤凰吧(版主哎),谁知是个银样蜡枪头。

真囧。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-9 01:47 AM | 显示全部楼层
回复 kubuwa 的帖子

在犹太人树立 耶和华 为唯一神之前,还有很多的苏美尔、巴比伦神话,这些神在造人之前已经打了一轮。后来这些神才按照 “我们” 的性象造人的。

我看是犹太神化由于只树立了一个神,所以,史前神打神的那一段才被删去了。

不过,到写《新约》时,我看大多数的苏美尔、巴比伦神话已经被遗忘了。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-9 01:49 AM | 显示全部楼层
Enuma Elish

'When on high'

The Babylonian Epic of Creation

Translator unknown.

The Babylonian/Mesopotamian creation myth, Enuma Elish, When on high, was written no later than the reign of Nebuchadrezzar in the 12th century B.C.E. But there is also little doubt that this story was written much earlier, during the time of the Sumerians. Drawing some new light on the ancients, Henry Layard found within the ruins of the library of Ashurbanipal in Nineveh, texts that were not unlike the Genesis creation in the Bible. George Smith first published these texts in 1876 under the title, 'The Chaldean Genesis'. Akkadian text written in the old Babylonian dialect.



When on high the heaven had not been named,
Firm ground below had not been called by name,
Naught but primordial Apsu, their begetter,
(And) Mummu-Tiamat, she who bore them all,
Their waters commingling as a single body;
No reed hut had been matted, no marsh land had appeared,
When no gods whatever had been brought into being,
Uncalled by name, their destinies undetermined-
Then it was that the gods were formed within them.
Lahmu and Lahamu were brought forth, by name they were called.
For aeons they grew in age and stature.
Anshar and Kishar were formed, surpassing the others.
They prolonged the days, added on the years.
Anu was their son, of his fathers the rival;
Yea, Anshar's first born, Anu was his equal.
Anu begot in his image Nudimmud.
This Nudimmud was of his fathers the master;
Of broad wisdom, understanding, mighty in strength,
Mightier by far than his grandfather, Anshar.
He had no rival among the gods, his brothers.
The divine brothers banded together,
They disturbed Tiamat as they surged back and forth,
Yea, they troubled the mood of Tiamat
By their hilarity in the Abode of Heaven.
Apsu could not lessen their clamour
And Tiamat was speechless at their ways.
Their doings were loathsome unto (. . .).
Unsavory were their ways; they were overbearing.
Then Apsu, the begetter of the great gods,
Cried out, addressing Mummu, his vizier:
"O Mummu. my vizier, who rejoicest my spirit,
Come hither and let us go to Tiamat!"
They went and sat down before Tiamat,
Exchanging counsel about the gods, their first born.
Apsu, opening his mouth,
Said unto resplendent Tiamat:
"Their ways are verily loathsome unto me.
By day I find no relief, nor repose by night.
I will destroy, I will wreck their ways,
That quiet may be restored. Let us have rest!"
As soon as Tiamat heard this,
She was wroth and called out to her husband.
She cried out aggrieved, as she raged all alone,
Injecting woe into her mood:
"What? Should we destroy what we have built?
Their ways are indeed troublesome, but let us attend kindly!"
Ill wishing and ungracious was Mummu's advice:
"Do destroy, my father, the mutinous ways.
Then shalt thou have relief by day and rest by night!"
When Apsu heard this, his face grew radiant
Because of the evil he planned against the gods, his sons.
As for Mummu, by the neck he embraced him
As (that one) sat down on his knees to kiss him.
(Now) whatever they plotted between them
Was repeated unto the gods, their first born.
When the gods heard (this), they were astir,
(Then) lapsed into silence and remained speechless,
Surpassing in wisdom, accomplished, resourceful,
Ea, the all wise, saw through their scheme.
A master design against it he devised and setup,
Made artful his spell against it, surpassing and holy.
He recited it and made it subsist in the deep,
As he poured sleep upon him. Sound asleep he lay.
When Apsu he made prone, drenched with sleep,
Mummu, the adviser, was impotent to move,
He loosened his band, tore off his tiara,
Removed his halo (and) put it on himself.
Having fettered Apsu, he slew him.
Mummu he bound and left behind lock.
Having thus upon Apsu established his dwelling,
He laid hold on Mummu, holding him by the nose rope.
After he vanquished and trodden down his foes,
Ea, his triumph over his enemies secured,
In his sacred chamber in profound sleep he rested.
He named it "Apsu," for shrines he assigned (it).
In that same place his cult hut he founded.
Ea and Damkina, his wife, dwelled (there) in splendor.
In the chamber of fates, the abode of destinies,
A god was engendered, most potent and wisest of gods.
In the heart of Apsu was Marduk created,
In the heart of holy Apsu was Marduk created.
He who begot him was Ea, his father;
She who conceived him was Damkina, his mother.
The breast of goddesses did she suck.
The nurse that nursed him filled him with awesomeness.
Alluring was his figure, sparkling the lift in his eyes.
Lordly was his gait, commanding from of old.
When Ea saw him, the father who begot him,
He exulted and glowed, his heart filled with gladness.
He rendered him perfect and endowed him with a double godhead.
Greatly exalted was he above them, exceeding throughout.
Perfect were his members beyond comprehension,
Unsuited for understanding, difficult to perceive.
Four were his eyes, four were his ears;
When he moved his lips, fire blazed forth.
Large were all hearing organs,
And the eyes, in like number, scanned all things.
He was the loftiest of the gods, surpassing was his stature;
His members were enormous, he was exceedingly tall.
"My little son, my little son!
My son, the Sun! Sun of the heavens!"
Clothed with the halo of the ten gods, he was strong to the utmost,
As their awesome flashes were heaped upon him.

Disturbed was Tiamat, astir night and day.
The gods, in malice, contributed to the storm.
Their insides having plotted evil.
To Tiamat these brothers said:
"When they slew Apsu, thy consort,
Thou didst not aid him but remaindest still.
Although he fashioned the awesome Saw,
Thy insides are diluted and so we can have no rest.
Let Apsu, thy consort, be in thy mind
And Mummu, who has been vanquished! Thou are left alone.

Then joined issue Tiamat and Marduk, wisest of gods,
They swayed in single combat, locked in battle.
The lord spread out his net to enfold her,
The Evil Wind, which followed behind, he let loose in her face.
When Tiamat opened her mouth to consume him,
He drove the Evil Wind that she close not her lips.
As the fierce winds charged her belly,
Her body was distended and her mouth was wide open.
He released the arrow, it tore her belly,
It cut through her insides, splitting the heart.
Having thus subdued her, he extinguished her life.
He cast down her carcass to stand upon it...
The lord trod on the legs of Tiamat,
With his unsparing mace he crushed her skull.
When the arteries of her blood he had severed,
The North Wind bore (it) to places undisclosed.
On seeing this, his fathers were joyful and jubilant,
They brought gifts of homage, they to him.
Then the lord paused to view her dead body,
That he might divide the monster and do artful works.
He split her like a shellfish into two parts:
Half of her he set up and ceiled as sky,
Pulled down the bar and posted guards.
He bade them to allow not her waters to escape.
He crossed the heavens and surveyed (its) regions.
He squared Apsu's quarter, the abode of Nudimmud,
As the lord measured the dimensions of Apsu.
The Great Abode, its likeness, he fixed as Esharra,
The Great Abode, Esharra, which he made as the firmament.
Anu, Enlil, and Ea he made occupy their places.

When Marduk hears the words of the gods,
His heart prompts (him) to fashion artful works.
Opening his mouth he addresses EA
To impart the plan he addresses EA
To impart the plan he had conceived in his heart:
"Blood I will mass and cause boned to be.
I will establish a savage, 'man' shall be his name.
Verily, savage man I will create.
He shall be charged with the service of the gods
That they might be at ease! The ways of the gods I will artfully alter.
Though alike revered, into two (groups) they shall be divided."
Ea answered him, speaking a word to him.
To relate to him a scheme for the relief of the gods:
"Let but one of their brothers be handed over;"
He alone shall perish that mankind may be fashioned.
Let the great gods be here in Assembly,
Let the guilty be handed over that they may endure."
Marduk summoned the great gods to Assembly;
Presiding graciously, he issued instructions.
This utterance the gods pay heed.
The king addresses a word to the Anunnaki:
"If your former statement was true,
Do (now) the truth on oath by me declare!
Who was it that contrived the uprising,
And made Tiamat rebel, and joined battle?
Let him be handed over who contrived the uprising.
His guilt I will make him bear that you may dwell in peace!"
The Igigi, the great gods, replied to him,
To Lugaldimmerankia, counsellor of the gods, their lord:
"It was Kingu who contrived the uprising,
And made Tiamat rebel, and joined battle."
The bound him holding him before Ea.
They imposed on him his guilt and severed his blood (vessels).
Out of his blood they fashioned mankind.
He imposed the service and let free the gods.

回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-9 01:54 AM | 显示全部楼层
我这个贴提到了造人那一段:


《创世纪的进化》
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-11 12:20 PM | 显示全部楼层
感谢也和话指点~

创世纪的进化 这文章原来因为有点长没看完,重新拜读。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-14 04:25 PM | 显示全部楼层
kubuwa 发表于 2011-8-9 04:29
回复 任大先生 的帖子

这么说,如果耶和华不知道他要造的是什么,会造成什么样子,他是没法造、没法爱的。 ...

这个结,不求救于被打倒在地的异端邪说诺斯替,基督教是永远解不开的。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

 楼主| 发表于 2011-8-14 04:43 PM | 显示全部楼层
乡下人进城 发表于 2011-8-14 17:25
这个结,不求救于被打倒在地的异端邪说诺斯替,基督教是永远解不开的。

愿闻其详~
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-15 12:18 PM | 显示全部楼层
kubuwa 发表于 2011-8-14 22:43
愿闻其详~

先简单点儿,用已经于1970年去世的不来梅牧师 H. Raschke 的经典描述来说:

福音书的耶稣,仅仅是保罗派的耶稣穿上了历史的外衣,保罗派的耶稣是经过天主教修饰的诺斯替的耶稣,而诺斯替的耶稣仅仅是一个形而上的真实。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-15 12:41 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 Blackjack1 于 2011-8-15 16:05 编辑
任大先生 发表于 2011-8-8 22:34
”以弗所書  1:4 [和合本] 就如神從創立世界以前、在基督裡揀選了我們、使我們在他面前成為聖潔、無有瑕疵 ...


既然神在创世纪前就拣选好了,那麽很多人一厢情愿的信也是白搭。象我们不信的就更没指望了。另外就是既然早都定了,这个教根本不需要传。凡是传教的肯定都是异端或骗子,在自己被BBQ前拉个垫背的。
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

发表于 2011-8-17 01:02 AM | 显示全部楼层
Blackjack1 发表于 2011-8-15 13:41
既然神在创世纪前就拣选好了,那麽很多人一厢情愿的信也是白搭。象我们不信的就更没指望了。另外就是既 ...

任大看我说的沾边不,欢迎批判
回复 鲜花 鸡蛋

使用道具 举报

您需要登录后才可以回帖 登录 | 注册

本版积分规则

手机版|小黑屋|www.hutong9.net

GMT-5, 2024-5-3 11:14 AM , Processed in 0.079656 second(s), 12 queries .

Powered by Discuz! X3.5

© 2001-2024 Discuz! Team.

快速回复 返回顶部 返回列表