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[转贴] 要知道奥巴马出什么政策,对比罗斯福时代就知道

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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:09 PM | 显示全部楼层


原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 14:57 发表 啊? 你是认真的? 你知不知道,日本明治维新成功是什么时候?日本到中国来抢钱是什么时候的事情?


One goal of 明治维新成功 is kill chinese and take the land, money, woman away. Ii is the only way they can get strong.  Js have a lot of money now, but they are not strong.


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发表于 2009-1-22 03:10 PM | 显示全部楼层
Great Depression的危机是产量过剩造成的。所以,只要有人愿意印足够的钱,危机就能渡过。看了这里某些人赞扬希特勒的经济政策,觉得真是好笑,你们知道1934-1939德国的国债涨了多少倍吗?希特勒到1940再不动手,整个国家破产!现在已近有不少人嚷嚷美国国债太多,但按比例来说,比希特勒德国当年的数目是小巫见大巫。
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发表于 2009-1-22 03:12 PM | 显示全部楼层
 
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:16 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 14:42 发表 犹太人集中营也是二战开始之后的事情。我现在想问的是,从希特勒上台,到他发动二战,这几年之间,他是怎们让德国经济从一塌糊涂到有那么强大的实力的?


They still had very strong 工业 before 希特勒上台  .  If you want find more, u should check out some books.  It take a lot time.
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发表于 2009-1-22 03:18 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 markcoursey 于 2009-1-22 15:09 发表 One goal of 明治维新成功 is kill chinese and take the land, money, woman away. Ii is the only way they can get strong.  Js have a lot of money now, but they are not strong.


看见你说日本明治维新成功是由于日本二战的时候到中国抢了很多钱的缘故,我觉得咱们这个话题没有必要讨论下去了。
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发表于 2009-1-22 03:21 PM | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2009-1-22 03:22 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 dividend_growth 于 2009-1-22 15:06 发表 你应该好好学学德国历史,1933年希特勒上台后马上就开了集中营,1942年后开始的是大规模屠杀。


请给出出处。 希特勒在战前从犹太人手里抢了多少钱?
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:30 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 15:18 发表 看见你说日本明治维新成功是由于日本二战的时候到中国抢了很多钱的缘故,我觉得咱们这个话题没有必要讨论下去了。


no no no.  One of 明治维新 plan was taking our money and land. After 明治维新成功, they need money and market to become strong country. 


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发表于 2009-1-22 03:31 PM | 显示全部楼层
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany

“On the night of 27 February 1933 the Reichstag building was set on fire and Dutch council communist Marinus van der Lubbe was found inside the building. He was arrested and charged with starting the blaze. The event had an immediate effect on thousands of anarchists, socialists and communists throughout the Reich, many of whom were sent to the Dachau concentration camp. The unnerved public worried that the fire had been a signal meant to initiate the communist revolution, and the Nazis found the event to be of immeasurable value in getting rid of potential insurgents. The event was quickly followed by the Reichstag Fire Decree, rescinding habeas corpus and other civil liberties.”

“The inception of the Gestapo, police acting outside of any civil authority, highlighted the Nazis' intention to use powerful, coercive means to directly control German society. An army, estimated to be of about 100,000, spies and informants operated throughout Germany, reporting to Nazi officials the activities of any critics or dissenters.[citation needed] Most ordinary Germans, happy with the improving economy and better standard of living, remained obedient and quiet, but many political opponents, especially[citation needed] communists and Marxist or international socialists, were reported by omnipresent eavesdropping spies and put in prison camps where many were tortured and killed. It is estimated that tens of thousands of political victims died or disappeared in the first few years of Nazi rule.

"Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons"[8] "Tens of thousands of Germans were killed for one or another form of resistance. Between 1933 and 1945 Special Courts killed 12,000 Germans, courts martial killed 25,000 German soldiers, and 'regular' justice killed 40,000 Germans. Many of these Germans were part of the government civil or military service, a circumstance which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy while involved, marginally or significantly, in the government's policies."[9]

Persecution and extermination campaigns

A member of Einsatzgruppe D killing a Jew who is kneeling before a filled mass grave in Vinnitsa, Ukraine, in 1942. The back of the photo is inscribed "The last Jew in Vinnitsa"

The persecution of minorities and "undesirables" continued both in Germany and the occupied countries. From 1941 onward, Jews were required to wear a yellow badge in public and most were transferred to ghettos, where they remained isolated from the rest of the population. In January 1942, at the Wannsee Conference and under the supervision of Reinhard Heydrich, who himself was commanded by Heinrich Himmler, a plan for the "Final Solution of the Jewish Question" (Endlösung der Judenfrage) in Europe was designed. From then until the end of the war some six million Jews and many others, including homosexuals, Slavs, and political prisoners, were systematically killed. In addition, more than ten million people were put into forced labour. This genocide is called the Holocaust in English and the Shoah in Hebrew. Thousands were shipped daily to extermination camps and concentration camps.

Parallel to the Holocaust, the Nazis conducted a ruthless program of conquest and exploitation over the captured Soviet and Polish territories and their populations as part of their Generalplan Ost. According to estimates, 20 million Soviet civilians, three million non-Jewish Poles, and seven million Red Army soldiers died because of the Nazis in what the Russians call the Great Patriotic War. The Nazis' plan was to extend German Lebensraum ("living space") eastward, a foreseen consequence of the war in Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union, said by the Nazis to have been waged in order "to defend Western Civilization against Bolshevism of subhumans". It is estimated that at least 51 milion Slavic people were to be removed from Central and Eastern Europe in the event of Nazi victory[10]. Because of the many atrocities suffered under Stalin, the Nazi message was interpreted by many to be legitimate in parts of Soviet Union. Many Ukrainians, Balts, and other nationalities fought, or at least expected to fight, on the side of the Germans. People in the occupied territories of the Soviet Union that fulfilled the basic racial classifications of the Aryan race or had no Jewish ancestry, were allowed to avoid persecution and allowed to enlist in the Waffen Schutzstaffel (Waffen-SS) divisions. The Nazi regime intended to eventually "Germanize" the racially-acceptable peoples of the occupied east.”


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Nazi_Germany

Pre-war economy: 1933–1939

Nazis came to power in the aftermath of the Great Depression. When the Nazis came to power the most pressing issue was an unemployment rate of close to 30%[3]. Before World War II, the Nazis placed non-Nazi professionals in charge of economic policy. Hitler appointed Hjalmar Schacht, a former member of the German Democratic Party, as Chairman of the Reichsbank in 1933 and Minister of Economics in 1934.

At first, Schacht continued the economic policies introduced by the government of Kurt von Schleicher in 1932 to combat the effects of the Great Depression. These policies were mostly Keynesian, relying on large public works programs supported by deficit spending — such as the construction of the Autobahn — to stimulate the economy and reduce unemployment. There was major reduction in unemployment over the following years, while price controls prevented the recurrence of inflation. The economic policies of the Third Reich were in the beginning the brainchildren of Schacht, who assumed office as president of the central bank under Hitler in 1933, and became finance minister in the following year[3]. Schacht was one of the few finance ministers to take advantage of the freedom provided by the end of the gold standard to keep interest rates low and government budget deficits high, with massive public works funded by large budget deficits[3]. The consequence was an extremely rapid decline in unemployment—the most rapid decline in unemployment in any country during the Great Depression[3]. Eventually this Keynesian economic policy was supplemented by the boost to demand provided by rearmament and swelling military spending.

Meanwhile, the Nazis outlawed trade unions and banned strikes. They also directed Schacht to place more emphasis on military production and rearmament. Germany slowly began to recover from the Great Depression, but this recovery was driven primarily by a military build-up. A number of economists, starting with Michal Kalecki, have seen this as an example of military Keynesianism. In June 1933, the "Reinhardt Program" was introduced. It was an ambitious project for the development of infrastructure; it combined indirect incentives, such as tax reductions, with direct public investment in waterways, railroads and highways.[22] The Reinhardt Program was followed by other similar initiatives resulting in great expansion of the German construction industry between 1933 and 1936. In 1933 only 666,000 Germans worked in construction; by 1936 the number had gone up to 2,000,000.[23] In particular, road construction was expanding at a very rapid pace. This was part of Hitler's war preparations: Germany needed a state-of-the-art highway system in order to be able to move troops and materials quickly. Cars and other forms of motorized transport became increasingly attractive to the population. The German car industry experienced a boom in the 1930s.[24] In 1936, military spending in Germany exceeded 10% of GNP (higher than any other European country at the time). Military investment also exceeded civilian investment from 1936 onwards. Armaments dominated government expenditures on goods and services.[25]

The year 1936 also represented a turning point for German trade policy. Hjalmar Schacht was replaced in September 1936 by Hitler's lieutenant Hermann Goering, with a mandate to make Germany self-sufficient to fight a war within four years.[3] Under Goering imports were slashed. Wages and prices were controlled—under penalty of being sent to the concentration camp. Dividends were restricted to six percent on book capital. And strategic goals to be reached at all costs were declared: the construction of synthetic rubber plants, more steel plants, automatic textile factories.[3]

World prices for raw materials (which constituted the bulk of German imports) were on the rise. At the same time, world prices for manufactured goods (Germany's chief exports) were falling. The result was that Germany found it increasingly difficult to maintain a balance of payments. A large trade deficit seemed almost inevitable. But Hitler found this prospect unacceptable. Thus Germany, following Italy's lead, began to move away from partially free trade in the direction of economic self-sufficiency.[26]

Unlike Italy, however, Germany did not strive to achieve full autarky. Hitler was aware of the fact that Germany lacked reserves of raw materials, and full autarky was therefore impossible. Thus he chose a different approach. The Nazi government tried to limit the number of its trade partners, and, when possible, only trade with countries within the German sphere of influence. A number of bilateral trade agreements were signed between Germany and other European countries (mostly countries located in Southern and South-Eastern Europe) during the 1930s. The German government strongly encouraged trade with these countries but strongly discouraged trade with any others.[5]

By the late 1930s, the aims of German trade policy were to use economic and political power to make the countries of Southern Europe and the Balkans dependent on Germany. The German economy would draw its raw materials from that region, and the countries in question would receive German manufactured goods in exchange. Already in 1938, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece transacted 50% of all their foreign trade with Germany.[6] Throughout the 1930s, German businesses were encouraged to form cartels, monopolies and oligopolies, whose interests were then protected by the state.[27] In his book, Big Business in the Third Reich, Arthur Schweitzer notes that:

Monopolistic price fixing became the rule in most industries, and cartels were no longer confined to the heavy or large-scale industries. [...] Cartels and quasi-cartels (whether of big business or small) set prices, engaged in limiting production, and agreed to divide markets and classify consumers in order to realize a monopoly profit.[28]

As big business became increasingly organized, it developed an increasingly close partnership with the Nazi government. The government pursued economic policies that maximized the profits of its business allies, and, in exchange, business leaders supported the government's political and military goals.[7]

While the strict state intervention into the economy, and the massive rearmament policy, led to full employment during the 1930s, real wages in Germany dropped by roughly 25% between 1933 and 1938. [4] Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike. [8] The right to quit also disappeared: Labour books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job. [8] In place of ordinary profit incentive to guide investment, investment was guided through regulation to accord with needs of the State. Government financing eventually came to dominate the investment process, which the proportion of private securities issued falling from over half of the total in 1933 and 1934 to approximately 10 percent in 1935–1938. Heavy taxes on profits limited self-financing of firms. The largest firms were mostly exempt from taxes on profits, however government control of these were extensive enough to leave "only the shell of private ownership." [29]

Another part of the new German economy was massive rearmament, with the goal being to expand the 100,000-strong German Army into a force of millions. The Four-Year Plan was discussed in the controversial Hossbach Memorandum, which provides the "minutes" from one of Hitler's briefings.

Nevertheless, the war came and although the Four-Year Plan technically expired in 1940, Hermann Göring had built up a power base in the "Office of the Four-Year Plan" that effectively controlled all German economic and production matters by this point in time. In 1942 the growing burdens of the war and the death of Todt saw the economy move to a full war economy under Albert Speer.”


这就是Hitler所谓的经济政策。如果军队从100,000扩张到4,000,000,还会有失业率吗?但一个6000万人的国家能多久支撑400万军队?


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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:31 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 15:22 发表 请给出出处。 希特勒在战前从犹太人手里抢了多少钱?


There are many books and movies.
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发表于 2009-1-22 03:32 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 markcoursey 于 2009-1-22 15:30 发表 no no no.  One of 明治维新 plan was taking our money and land. After 明治维新成功, they need money and market to become strong country. 



plan.  呵呵, 苯拉登还plan摧毁美利坚合众国呢。
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:40 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 14:38 发表 我没忘,但是这里是讨论经济政策。日本对中国罪恶滔天。要牢记。 但是另一方面,我们也可以讨论,为什么日本明治维新,能够让日本崛起,而中国光绪变法却失败了,丧失了大好机会?


One of reason is 中国光绪 and his people is not come from real "chinese", they scared those "chinese" would take the power away. They were no dofferent from Js.


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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:43 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 15:32 发表 plan.  呵呵, 苯拉登还plan摧毁美利坚合众国呢。:" />



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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 03:56 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 14:32 发表 同意。我反对希特勒的种族政策。可是,这并不妨碍我研究他的经济政策。


希特勒的种族政策 is one of his 他的经济政策
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发表于 2009-1-22 04:04 PM | 显示全部楼层



"Between 1933 and 1945 more than 3 million Germans had been in concentration camps or prison for political reasons"[8] "Tens of thousands of Germans were killed for one or another form of resistance. Between 1933 and 1945 Special Courts killed 12,000 Germans, courts martial killed 25,000 German soldiers, and 'regular' justice killed 40,000 Germans. Many of these Germans were part of the government civil or military service, a circumstance which enabled them to engage in subversion and conspiracy while involved, marginally or significantly, in the government's policies."[9]

这个数据是1933到1945年的,已经包括二战期间了。跟我说的二战前不是一回事。




Pre-war economy: 1933–1939


Schacht was one of the few finance ministers to take advantage of the freedom provided by the end of the gold standard to keep interest rates low and government budget deficits high, with massive public works funded by large budget deficits[3]. The consequence was an extremely rapid decline in unemployment—the most rapid decline in unemployment in any country during the Great Depression[3]. Eventually this Keynesian economic policy was supplemented by the boost to demand provided by rearmament and swelling military spending.


这一段是说,希特勒的财政部长取消了跟黄金挂钩的金本位政策,得以保留低利率,并可以做大量的公共投资。 很好。这一个方法,罗斯福也采用了。不知道他们谁跟谁学的,还是英雄所见略同?



In June 1933, the "Reinhardt Program" was introduced. It was an ambitious project for the development of infrastructure; it combined indirect incentives, such as tax reductions, with direct public investment in waterways, railroads and highways.[22] The Reinhardt Program was followed by other similar initiatives resulting in great expansion of the German construction industry between 1933 and 1936. In 1933 only 666,000 Germans worked in construction; by 1936 the number had gone up to 2,000,000.[23] In particular, road construction was expanding at a very rapid pace. This was part of Hitler's war preparations: Germany needed a state-of-the-art highway system in order to be able to move troops and materials quickly. Cars and other forms of motorized transport became increasingly attractive to the population. The German car industry experienced a boom in the 1930s.[24] In 1936, military spending in Germany exceeded 10% of GNP (higher than any other European country at the time). Military investment also exceeded civilian investment from 1936 onwards. Armaments dominated government expenditures on goods and services.[25]

这一段是说希特勒政府投资修建了很多基础设施,水道,铁路和高速公路建设。造了很多汽车摩托车等。然后大规模投资军队建设,超过10%的GNP用于军费开支。


World prices for raw materials (which constituted the bulk of German imports) were on the rise. At the same time, world prices for manufactured goods (Germany's chief exports) were falling. The result was that Germany found it increasingly difficult to maintain a balance of payments. A large trade deficit seemed almost inevitable. But Hitler found this prospect unacceptable. Thus Germany, following Italy's lead, began to move away from partially free trade in the direction of economic self-sufficiency.[26]

这一段,就是2006年2007年西方国家试图用来对付中国的手段,大幅度提高原材料的价格,压低制成品的价格。 可以想象,当初同样的事情发生,应该也是那些国家用来对付崛起中的德国的手段吧?

Unlike Italy, however, Germany did not strive to achieve full autarky. Hitler was aware of the fact that Germany lacked reserves of raw materials, and full autarky was therefore impossible. Thus he chose a different approach. The Nazi government tried to limit the number of its trade partners, and, when possible, only trade with countries within the German sphere of influence. A number of bilateral trade agreements were signed between Germany and other European countries (mostly countries located in Southern and South-Eastern Europe) during the 1930s. The German government strongly encouraged trade with these countries but strongly discouraged trade with any others.[5]

德国开始限制对外贸易。不跟某些国家作生意了。


By the late 1930s, the aims of German trade policy were to use economic and political power to make the countries of Southern Europe and the Balkans dependent on Germany. The German economy would draw its raw materials from that region, and the countries in question would receive German manufactured goods in exchange. Already in 1938, Yugoslavia, Hungary, Romania, Bulgaria and Greece transacted 50% of all their foreign trade with Germany.[6] Throughout the 1930s, German businesses were encouraged to form cartels, monopolies and oligopolies, whose interests were then protected by the state.[27] In his book, Big Business in the Third Reich, Arthur Schweitzer notes that:

Monopolistic price fixing became the rule in most industries, and cartels were no longer confined to the heavy or large-scale industries. [...] Cartels and quasi-cartels (whether of big business or small) set prices, engaged in limiting production, and agreed to divide markets and classify consumers in order to realize a monopoly profit.[28]

As big business became increasingly organized, it developed an increasingly close partnership with the Nazi government. The government pursued economic policies that maximized the profits of its business allies, and, in exchange, business leaders supported the government's political and military  goals.[7]

这一段是说希特勒建立了以德国为中心南欧和巴尔干经济圈。



While the strict state intervention into the economy, and the massive rearmament policy, led to full employment during the 1930s, real wages in Germany dropped by roughly 25% between 1933 and 1938. [4] Trade unions were abolished, as well as collective bargaining and the right to strike. [8] The right to quit also disappeared: Labour books were introduced in 1935, and required the consent of the previous employer in order to be hired for another job. [8] In place of ordinary profit incentive to guide investment, investment was guided through regulation to accord with needs of the State. Government financing eventually came to dominate the investment process, which the proportion of private securities issued falling from over half of the total in 1933 and 1934 to approximately 10 percent in 1935–1938. Heavy taxes on profits limited self-financing of firms. The largest firms were mostly exempt from taxes on profits, however government control of these were extensive enough to leave "only the shell of private ownership." [29]

这一段是说德国人都有工作了,但是工资普遍降低了。也就是说采用的是全民就业但是降低工资的方法。  之前的失业率是多少? 如果之前是25%的失业率,现在是大家都就业但是全都减少25%工资的话,好像全民收入应该差不多?


Another part of the new German economy was massive rearmament, with the goal being to expand the 100,000-strong German Army into a force of millions. The Four-Year Plan was discussed in the controversial Hossbach Memorandum, which provides the "minutes" from one of Hitler's briefings.

Nevertheless, the war came and although the Four-Year Plan technically expired in 1940, Hermann Göring had built up a power base in the "Office of the Four-Year Plan" that effectively controlled all German economic and production matters by this point in time. In 1942 the growing burdens of the war and the death of Todt saw the economy move to a full war economy under Albert Speer.”


这就是Hitler所谓的经济政策。如果军队从100,000扩张到4,000,000,还会有失业率吗?但一个6000万人的国家能多久支撑400万军队?

这几句是dividend_growth的话。呵呵,扩张军队,目的并不是为了减少失业率,而是为了战争。当时世界的情况,战争是不可避免的,看看中国清政府的情况就知道了。我还恨不得中国清政府能够把钱多投入到军队里而不是用来修圆明园呢。如果希特勒只是扩张军费开支,建设强大军队,并没有错。

另一方面,我们现在又说,苏联就是被美国用军备竞赛的方法拖垮的。可见,扩张军队,是双刃剑。希特勒能够处理好经济和军备的关系,而苏联就没处理好。

清政府,当然是处理得最不好的。


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发表于 2009-1-22 04:13 PM | 显示全部楼层
稍微综合一下:

1。 希特勒政府取消了跟黄金挂钩的金本位政策,得以保留低利率,并可以做大量的公共投资。 很好。这一个方法,罗斯福也采用了。不知道他们谁跟谁学的,还是英雄所见略同?

2。希特勒政府投资修建了很多基础设施,水道,铁路和高速公路建设。造了很多汽车摩托车等。 很好。这一个方法,罗斯福也采用了。不知道他们谁跟谁学的,还是英雄所见略同?

3。希特勒政府大规模投资军队建设,超过10%的GNP用于军费开支。  没有美国的数据,谁提供一下做个比较?

4。由于原材料价格上涨,而制成品价格下降,德国的利润空间受到挤压。这个处境和中国2006—2007的情况非常相像。 希特勒的处理办法就是限制只和某些国家进行贸易而不和另外一些国家交易。同时在南欧和巴尔干扶植自己的势力,使他们经济强力依赖德国。    而中国由于地大物博,比希特勒当年的活动空间大多了。中国也成功地击败了国际上的这种围堵阴谋,呵呵。

5。到了1938年,德国人都有工作了,但是工资普遍降低了。也就是说采用的是全民就业但是降低工资的方法。  之前的失业率是多少? 如果之前是25%的失业率,现在是大家都就业但是全都减少25%工资的话,好像全民收入应该差不多?


6。希特勒大力扩张军队。加强军备。这一条其实和上面第3条说的是同一回事。 我觉得这个是希特勒发展经济的目的,而不是手段。扩张军队,目的并不是为了减少失业率,而是为了战争。当时世界的情况,战争是不可避免的,看看中国清政府的情况就知道了。我还恨不得中国清政府能够把钱多投入到军队里而不是用来修圆明园呢。如果希特勒只是扩张军费开支,建设强大军队,并没有错。另一方面,我们现在又说,苏联就是被美国用军备竞赛的方法拖垮的。可见,扩张军队,是双刃剑。希特勒能够处理好经济和军备的关系,而苏联就没处理好。清政府,当然是处理得最不好的。
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 楼主| 发表于 2009-1-22 04:14 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 revolver 于 2009-1-22 14:38 发表 弱肉强食,这就是自然规律和人类历史!战争那又不死人的?蒙古、女真杀了多少汉人,又怎么样?现在还不都成了同胞了?


Do you want to be killed on the street?
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发表于 2009-1-22 04:17 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 markcoursey 于 2009-1-22 16:14 发表 Do you want to be killed on the street?


这算什么话?如果不是中国有强大的军队和国防,中国现在就是伊拉克,中国人随时会被杀在大街上。

所以发展军队是为了国防的需要,经济发展是为国防服务的,而不是颠倒过来。
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发表于 2009-1-22 04:18 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 markcoursey 于 2009-1-22 16:14 发表 Do you want to be killed on the street?

这种鼓吹弱肉强食的人最讨厌。
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发表于 2009-1-22 04:20 PM | 显示全部楼层
原帖由 xiaobailong 于 2009-1-22 16:17 发表 这算什么话?如果不是中国有强大的军队和国防,中国现在就是伊拉克,中国人随时会被杀在大街上。所以发展军队是为了国防的需要,经济发展是为国防服务的,而不是颠倒过来。

1990年时的伊拉克号称世界第四强陆军,1990年时苏联号称有最强大的陆军,有屁用!

穷兵黩武,外强中干,自取灭亡!

1900年以来,没有一个侵略战争是胜利的,全部以侵略者的惨败而告终。开始势头越猛的,后来败得也越惨!
[ 本帖最后由 dividend_growth 于 2009-1-22 16:21 编辑 ]
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